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  • who would win in a battle. the black hand or the two rebel factions.

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    • Black Hand

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    • If the glitch I experienced is anything to go by, then the Black Hand would mop the floor with the others. Also, as shown in missions, if Rico doesn't help any of the rebels, then they can never win anything.

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    • Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

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    • UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

      But the black hand has all of dat too :V

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    • oops necro

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    • FartFromTheFuture wrote:

      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

      But the black hand has all of dat too :V

      The Black Hand has mechs and CS Odjurs available to them, but they don't have a single fixed-wing combat aircraft, and they don't have the Urga Bkolos 2100, or the Imperator Bavarium Tank, not to mention the Urga Mstitel.

      The Black Hand may have the infantry advantage but the Rebellion team will have superior air power and a wider variety of ground combat vehicles.

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    • Yeah

      And another dead thread is reactivated

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    • UsernamehereCustoms wrote:

      FartFromTheFuture wrote:

      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

      But the black hand has all of dat too :V
      The Black Hand has mechs and CS Odjurs available to them, but they don't have a single fixed-wing combat aircraft, and they don't have the Urga Bkolos 2100, or the Imperator Bavarium Tank, not to mention the Urga Mstitel.

      The Black Hand may have the infantry advantage but the Rebellion team will have superior air power and a wider variety of ground combat vehicles.

      All that is true. However, if Black Hand is at all smart (which, judging by the behavior of their weakest soldiers constantly running and dodging they probably are), air superiority is not that big of a threat to a Mech. The range of the GRIP is pretty ridiculous, and I've been able to  grab helicopters out of the air and throw them to the ground. I can't imagine planes being that much more difficult, if they're flying low enough. Bombers might be a bit of a challenge, but SAMs and drones could probably do most of the heavy lifting on that front.

      As much as I hate the Black Hand, they simply have superior technology. Sans Rico, rebels don't stand a chance.

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    • Ramguy2014 wrote:
      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:

      FartFromTheFuture wrote:


      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

      But the black hand has all of dat too :V
      The Black Hand has mechs and CS Odjurs available to them, but they don't have a single fixed-wing combat aircraft, and they don't have the Urga Bkolos 2100, or the Imperator Bavarium Tank, not to mention the Urga Mstitel.

      The Black Hand may have the infantry advantage but the Rebellion team will have superior air power and a wider variety of ground combat vehicles.

      All that is true. However, if Black Hand is at all smart (which, judging by the behavior of their weakest soldiers constantly running and dodging they probably are), air superiority is not that big of a threat to a Mech. The range of the GRIP is pretty ridiculous, and I've been able to  grab helicopters out of the air and throw them to the ground. I can't imagine planes being that much more difficult, if they're flying low enough. Bombers might be a bit of a challenge, but SAMs and drones could probably do most of the heavy lifting on that front.

      As much as I hate the Black Hand, they simply have superior technology. Sans Rico, rebels don't stand a chance.

      Well heck anyway, the rebellion has Rico.

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    • Reactivated 85 days later

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    • Ramguy2014 wrote:

      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:

      FartFromTheFuture wrote:

      UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      Rebellion Imperator Bavarium Tanks, CS Odjurs, Urga Bkolos 2100s, Corvettes, U-7 Dravecs, and CS7 Thunderhawks, combined with FPL Mechs?

      And you guys think the Black Hand would win?

      In a straight-up duel of the armies that involves everything available to both factions, the Rebel team would have a massive air and land advantage.

      But the black hand has all of dat too :V
      The Black Hand has mechs and CS Odjurs available to them, but they don't have a single fixed-wing combat aircraft, and they don't have the Urga Bkolos 2100, or the Imperator Bavarium Tank, not to mention the Urga Mstitel.

      The Black Hand may have the infantry advantage but the Rebellion team will have superior air power and a wider variety of ground combat vehicles.

      All that is true. However, if Black Hand is at all smart (which, judging by the behavior of their weakest soldiers constantly running and dodging they probably are), air superiority is not that big of a threat to a Mech. The range of the GRIP is pretty ridiculous, and I've been able to  grab helicopters out of the air and throw them to the ground. I can't imagine planes being that much more difficult, if they're flying low enough. Bombers might be a bit of a challenge, but SAMs and drones could probably do most of the heavy lifting on that front.

      As much as I hate the Black Hand, they simply have superior technology. Sans Rico, rebels don't stand a chance.

      ...they simply have superior technology. Sans Rico, rebels don't stand a chance.

      RICO JACKED ONE OF THEIR MECHS

      AND OBLITERATED THE HIVE

      AND MADE A FOOL OUT OF THEM DURING A "TOWER DEFENSE"

      How do they NOT stand a chance???

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    • They mean a battle without Rico dumass.

      to the creator of this. When you said the two rebellions, do you the medici and the lacrima one's?

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    • ....... I was joking.

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    • k

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    • What you guys fail to realize is that the Rebellion has the Urga Mstitel and the Imperator Bavarium Tank. They also have fixed-wing aircraft including strategic bombers while the Black Hand does not. I think the Black Hand's superior infantry and training would give the Rebellion a run for their money but on the vehicular front the Rebellion would have quite the technological advantage.

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    • The Black Hand don't have any Bavarium weapons BTW

      Reactivated 3 days later

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    • Anonymous230385 wrote: The Black Hand don't have any Bavarium weapons BTW

      Reactivated 3 days later

      Are you sure about that

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    • UsernamehereCustoms wrote:
      What you guys fail to realize is that the Rebellion has the Urga Mstitel and the Imperator Bavarium Tank. They also have fixed-wing aircraft including strategic bombers while the Black Hand does not. I think the Black Hand's superior infantry and training would give the Rebellion a run for their money but on the vehicular front the Rebellion would have quite the technological advantage.

      From what I've experienced, the only thing the Mech's GRIP doesn't affect is other Mechs and indestructibles. Even with the Bavarium shields, I can't see the Mstitel or the Imperator being viable threats. The Mech is stronger, faster, more agile, and better armed.

      I think the next time I play, I'm gonna go hunt down a Mstitel and an Imperator in a Mech, just to see if I'm right. Does anyone know where I can find a good supply of Medici Military Mstitels/Imperators?

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    • Falco Maxime I think.

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    • Good luck surviving though

      Assuming the weapon of doom is still active

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    • What's the FOW in that region?

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    • Well I have every province and region including dlcs liberated with all missions done.

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    • Ramguy2014 wrote:
      What's the FOW in that region?

      The FOW is the bavarium nuke.

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    • Still not as big as regular nuke.

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    • Yeah. The bavarium nuke is more of a large bomb than a nuke. A real nuke is much much MUCH larger. The explosion is miles in diamater.

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    • So, I have returned from Falco Maxime , and have determined that Imperators and Urga Mstitels do not hold a candle to the Autocannon Mech. Their shields do not protect against the Mech's GRIP, and the cannon makes short work of the helicopters. I did not experience any strafing/bombing runs by other military aircraft, but I grabbed some off the runway and just taking off and threw them into other vehicles/structures. All that to say, I'm pretty sure Black Hand beats rebels.

      In the interest of an even test, I should probably take a jet to Lacrima. Does the Black Hand spawn there after you complete Mech Land Assault?

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    • I don't think they do, unless you Re-oppress something.

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    • They don't

      Reactivated 15 days later

      Edit: Mechs > IBTs and Urga Mstitels by far

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    • Anonymous230385 wrote:
      They don't

      Reactivated 15 days later

      Edit: Mechs > IBTs and Urga Mstitels by far

      It was definitely one-sided, but I wouldn't say it was by far. I had to make two tries, since my Mech was shot to pieces within about two minutes of my arrival on my first attempt. Also, I parachuted to the end of one of the runways and had dropped a Mech beacon almost before I landed on the platform, so I didn't have to fight my way into the base and was able to neutralize any air support before it even got off the ground. In open combat I believe it would have been much more of a challenge. I dropped a Bavarium Mech and a Rebel Mech in Vista Dracon (I think) and actually had a bit of a challenge trying to fight tanks and helicopters between all the buildings. The Mech relies on open airspace and clear lines of sight for grabbing and throwing projectiles, while the Medici Military don't seem to be bothered by buildings or other tall structures.

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    • I would love to see more Black Hand vehicles, like a black hand Akrobat as a light transport aircraft. I kinda miss those rare vehicle variants you would find in JC2 and 1.

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    • @Pure Competizione yeah, me too! It was really enjoyable to dig through game in JC1 to find super-rare vehicles and color variants, unlike JC3 where you appereantly know every vehicle in game via Rebel Drop menu. 

      And yes, Black Hand in JC1 had a lot of faction-unique vehicles Rotor industries ATRV , Stinger GP and Walker AH-16 Hammerbolt. I's like to see more of those in next game, it really made Black Hand look unique in comparison to San Esperito military. 

      However I don't think civilian plane like Akrobat really suits as troop transport. I think Black Hand derves a VTOL like this one since they are very high-tech in design. 

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    • Reactivated 128 days later

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    • I just like the idea of a black hand Akrobat. And remember, they still use Postolka's and Pavouk's

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    • Well, Postolka is still a military chopper (even as if very old one), and Pavouk... Actually that's quite funny, I mean, there are ATVs/Quads (and Black Hand even used one in JC1), as well as modern militaries seldomly use those , rather then motorbikes. 

      Still I see. So what's that you like in Acrobat? Is it just look that is appealing to you or something else that is interesting about this (as what I see it) average rotorcraft?

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    • ATV - disambiguation.

      The Urga U17 Akrobat is a "rotorcraft"? Are you sure you haven't mixed it up with something else?

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    • @GMRE well i't a plane with rotors. Eh, propellers. Sorry if my English is not as correct as I thought it was, but aren't those planes considered "rotorcrafts"? 

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    • No. A rotorcraft would have to be something like a helicopter.

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    • Ok, I'll aknowledge that. 

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    • Other than of course in the Just Cause Universe where it could even mean an ATV: Rotor industries ATRV.

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    • I think the reason I love it is because it's very rare for games to include aircraft with multiple propellors for no apparent reason. I also quite like the design of it as a tiny airliner for a tiny airline that flies inbetween islands. Most countries don't have them because they don't have many islands, but here in New Zealand there are a lot.

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    • @Pure Competizione Ok I see. It's just something that is rarely seen in other videogames and is quite common in your homeland then? Well, I do remember similar planes in other videogames, for example, this one in GTA San Andreas and AI-controlled propeller planes in Mercenaries 2: World in Flames. 

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    • I'd like to have a 4+ engine flying boat.

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    • @GMRE and how about GEV 's? Like this one. Or that

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    • Yeah, those are also among the things I've listed at some JC3 and JC4 wish lists. Probably in there somewhere: Just Cause 3 Wishlist - Archive 1 (see also parts 2 to 4).

      But if we're going to have relatively modernish unconventional large weaponized vehicles, it would be nice to also have a large hovercraft of sorts. I hear that coincidentally the largest of those are also soviet and also from the Caspian sea area. (To approach Turkey under the radar and keep NATO from being able to close the Bosphorus area. Or at least that was their plan in the 60s to 70s.)

      Unfortunately it's unlikely that we'll ever see vehicles of that size in an open world game, other than as Stationary vehicles. Especially if they're armed.

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    • @GMRE yeah... Hope any of Avalanche guys ever read those. However, when I completed JC3, I was really impressed. They fixed up literally everything I found wrong with JC2. And brought back most things I wanted - except some really "personal" favorites .

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    • OP is back after spending far too long on the Just Cause Fan Fiction wiki. Let me go quote some stuff and give some replies.

      To the debate about the Imperator Bavarium Tank versus a Mech, you forget that the Mech is actually not very good at turning, quite slow, and horribly outranged by the tank. And you also forget to factor in the boost of health that vehicles get when the player is in them. A player in an Imperator Bavarium Tank can easily defeat the entire Weapons Shipment Yard without ever being shot at by a Mech. I know because I tried it. The IBT stands no chance in a close-up fight, but in more open terrain the IBT can outrange the Mech and destroy it before it gets close.

      If the battlefield is right, an army of Imperator Bavarium Tanks can EASILY take down an army of Mechs.

      And for the record, this is comparing the unupgraded versions, so the Mech would not have its Bavarium shield gear mod.

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    • Pure Competizione wrote: I would love to see more Black Hand vehicles, like a black hand Akrobat as a light transport aircraft. I kinda miss those rare vehicle variants you would find in JC2 and 1.

      The Black Hand's arsenal of vehicles seems fine to me, but one hole they have is aircraft. They desparately need a U-7 Dravec and a CS7 Thunderhawk. Imagine those in near-matte black.

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    • And Black Hand Mstitel's (I know there wouldn't be a logical way of them obtaining one after the non-DLC game events (so maybe one without a shield)) and Hrom D's. It's also a shame that we never see the Rocket Boat in Black Hand colours.

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    • Pure Competizione wrote: It's also a shame that we never see the Rocket Boat in Black Hand colours.

      Or do we? It was meant to be a stealth-boat so why would it have their logos?

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    • Oi true

      In reality I wish there were some Easter egg adding a Black Hand Urga Mstitel somewhere

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    • @UsernamehereCustoms well, I guess a player can defeat quite easilly pretty much anything that AI throws at it; be it a mech or the Imperator Bavarium Tank, a moderately skillful player can outmaneuver and destroy it with "puny" Bkolos. Many times in a row. 

      However, in a lore version, that is mildely more "realistic" then a gameplay one, I'd say those vehicles are for different roles. Mechs beat IBT's in urban, mountain and jungle/forest environments where it has much better mobility, able to move through obstructions and yes, have a range advantage. IBT's, like any tank, are great for plains and deserts, and any other open environment with great ranges and ability to maneuver. Tank tactics generally suggest breaking and cutting enemy's defense line, flanking maneuvers that combine speed with firepower, but it's mechanized infantry that has to finish the job. In urban and jungle environemts, tank crews are pretty much "blind" without infantry support and cover, and are not exactly effective unless the enemy seriously lacks anti-tank ordinance.

      Medici ain't exactly a "flat-terrained" country, so mech drivers would have tactical advantage most of the time. And as for Air Support... Well, the Black Hand does have quite powerful anti-AA systems as well as advanced missile systems on Eden stations. Sure, gameplay-wise those are easilly outrun by player aircrafts, but lore-wise (or AI vs AI wise) those should be very effective. 

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    • GMRE wrote:

      Pure Competizione wrote: It's also a shame that we never see the Rocket Boat in Black Hand colours.

      Or do we? It was meant to be a stealth-boat so why would it have their logos?

      Well considering all of their other vehicles are clearly marked... Whether they're stealth vehicles or not I see no point as they would be the only vehicles on Lacrima.

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    • Well, like in any military, Black Hand might have "frontline" divisions with vehicles bearing their marks, and covert ops/stealth ones, without any logos or other indications those transports belong to them. 

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    • In some way I doubt that

      If any vehicle were captured without any logos, any country could claim it as their own

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    • Anonymous230385 wrote:
      In some way I doubt that

      If any vehicle were captured without any logos, any country could claim it as their own

      Ideally, it wouldn't be captured. But even if it were, it might be quite beneficial for a country to have plausible deniability if one of their craft was discovered. Imagine a United States Spec Ops boat had to be scuttled off the coast of North Korea; it would be pretty awkward for our government if a giant US flag was emblazoned on the side...

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    • Ramguy2014 wrote:
      Anonymous230385 wrote:
      In some way I doubt that

      If any vehicle were captured without any logos, any country could claim it as their own

      Ideally, it wouldn't be captured. But even if it were, it might be quite beneficial for a country to have plausible deniability if one of their craft was discovered. Imagine a United States Spec Ops boat had to be scuttled off the coast of North Korea; it would be pretty awkward for our government if a giant US flag was emblazoned on the side...


      1. Do not quote me.
      2. The chances of that happening right now are 0. The U.S. will not send a covert team into North Korea without good reason (like an imminent missile strike)
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    • @Anonymous230385 >If any vehicle were captured without any logos, any country could claim it as their own

      Well, that's the point of shadow operations is not it? To make sure that no country could confirm involvment of another country's forces? And to deny responsibility if any of such vehicles gets captured. 

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    • Also, vehicles have been captured from failed special operations in the past. They've always been easily identified and used for propaganda.

      Example: Several US helicopters were once abandoned in Iran. The US had sent several helicopters with special forces to try to rescue some people from Iran. The team had to abandon the helicopters due to technical problems caused by a sand storm, or something. In the end they still failed and got captured and the US had to admit it all and apologize to get those guys back. This happened before my time, but I would imagine, it must have been pretty funny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw Although I'm pretty sure I would have just ordered an even bigger rescue operation, because they were trying to save captured civilians, which would have been a legitimate reason (in my eyes) to invade Iran with any means necessary for the operation.

      In reality it's not really possible to abandon any military vehicles and claim that you don't know anything about them. Like a certain nation recently provided large numbers of tanks, APCs, artillery, multiple rocket launchers, random supplies and presumably much more to a paramilitary faction in a neighbouring nation that they had only recently invaded and still had the nerve to act like they don't know anything. Their officials actually literally made the argument that all that stuff must have been purchased from some local store, or captured from the enemy (despite all enemy equipment being accounted for). It's pretty funny, but also confusing way beyond my understanding, because at least every other head of state seemed to believe them. (I guess they were just being diplomatic about it and avoiding major arguments.)

      My point is that unmarked vehicles normally only matter as long as the operation/action/war is still happening. Later it won't matter anymore. The stealth boat is made to be invisible and the latest black hand flag has orange on it. Obviously they wouldn't want that on the boat. In addition to that, imagine that you're a grunt at some Guard Tower and you spot a boat. The options are:

      • Hey, look! It's a Black Hand boat! Shoot at it!
      • I can't tell who it belongs to. I think I'll call my commanding officer and ask for instructions. Maybe it's civilian, or something?

      The second option obviously gives the boat more time to do its thing unopposed.

      And after the action is over:

      • You won.
        • Who did you defeat? I guess in reality this wouldn't be too difficult to prove, but what would make a difference is the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, according to which unmarked random armed persons do not count as proper prisoners of war. This means that they are not entitled to being treated well. They are just some random terrorists who might have stolen the boat. Meaning that in theory, you won't have absolute evidence (unless you can make any possible prisoners talk) and they really won't want to be captured.
      • You lost.
        • So? Are you going to brag about it that you just got your ass kicked by some persons unknown? The persons unknown won't be able to brag much either, unless they can prove it was them. They won't really get any credit for it either, because a false flag operation might not seem too honorable. In fact, it might just be seen as cowardly. ...Although, as stated in The Art of War, "all warfare is based on deception". (Or at least so I've been told. I really should read that myself at some point.)
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    • Cannot comprehend

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    • @GMRE I guess that makes perfect sense. And there are real life examples of "wiping" country's symbols/insignia of wehicles and even personnel to cover up the involvement. I guess it would be even easier for corporation to do so rather then sovereign nation. So a boat with no Black Hand logo on it for shadow ops is very logical. 

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    • Anonymous230385
      Anonymous230385 removed this reply because:
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      22:43, April 20, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Anonymous230385
      Anonymous230385 removed this reply because:
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      22:43, April 20, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Anonymous230385
      Anonymous230385 removed this reply because:
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      22:43, April 20, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • ***** this

      GET BACK ON TOPIC

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    • Anonymous230385 wrote: ***** this

      GET BACK ON TOPIC

      Why did all those replies get removed?

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    • For being off-topic spam, I would imagine.

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    • It was entirely on the topic of blacked-out military vehicles. I promise I wasn't spamming.

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    • 69.249.214.228 wrote:
      who would win in a battle. the black hand or the two rebel factions.

      I'm guess the Black Hand but the Former Prisoners were able to hold their own against the Black Hand also it takes about 3 rebels to kill one Black Hand operative. Since the Rebellion and Former Prisoners operate in different areas they proabably don't have any relations and might not even know of each others own existence. If they both joined forces then they will proabably easily defeat the Black Hand and maybe even the Medici Military but, that is just a scenario I'm guessing the groups would get along with each other. The Rebellion have far more members than the Prisoners and depending on how much territory they conquered they will have more members and more likely have 5-to-1 against the Black Hand so if it was an all out war with no help eventually the Rebellion will overwhelm the Black Hand but that is my therory. Black Hand have great modern technology so they can possibly defeat the Rebellion they also have toughter troops and better training. 

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    • Reactivated 128 days later

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    • I'm pretty sure without Rico their faction wouldn't even exist, and they relied on Rico to fight the Black Hand. Also they don't have any mechs found outside of missions, only Black Hand surplus and Weimaraners, and most bases are undefended.

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    • Oh and the prisoners have no airforce. Black Hand does. And all bases controlled by the prisoners are pretty much destroyed.

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    • Pretty much

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    • Well they did manage to obtain a U41 Ptakojester in Strorming the Hive

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    • Story-wise, by that point 90+% of the military had been killed and their bases conquered.

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    • True

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    • But the airfield still seems to be in BH control, even though there are no soldiers from eiter faction there.

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    • Well it's an unmarked location, so in a way it's not under anyones control. We can only assume based on the story that Rico killed everyone there and the place has been abandoned since then.

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    • Yeah

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    • The SAMs are still operable, and always under enemy control.

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    • But they can still be hacked

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    • Not permanently

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    • Well there's a certain distance but generally speaking they stay Rebellion controlled if hacked

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    • The same goes for the SAMs you hack in Time for an Upgrade, or at least until you liberate Baia

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    • ...

      GET BACK

      ON TOPIC

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    • the black hand has a lot better trained soldiers,and with the titans, how does ANYTHING but Rico, and even Rico has a hard time killing the titans. How do the rebels measure up? the rebels only have like, 3 different trooper classes. I guess Rico is like, a sniper, heavy trooper, and a close combat trooper all in one, but that depends where they are having the battle, and if Rico is at the battle/battles. This is a deep arguement.

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    • You all say "Black Hand  would win" but that's not always the case in warfare. Explain how USA one of the most poweful militaries in the world lost to Communist farmers in Vietnam with outdated Soviet Weaponry. You can't just asume a faction will win because it has better technology and military assets. The Rebellion stick closely together so the Black Hand would have to wage a long and rully battle just to take one area held by The Rebels. Rebels are always patrolling, guarding their cities and waiting for their enemies. They also have their own airforce (Did you think that airstike gun was just a coincidence) Both factions aren't equally match the Black Hand has more military power but the Rebels may be able to beat them. The Rebellion also get aid from The Agency which obviously has more money to give then the entire Medici government. Some also have body armor, helmets and they do train but in secret.  So a war between The Rebellion with help from Lacrima Rebels who also have mechs against the Black Hand and their assets would be collosul. Black Hand could win or the Rebels could win but it won't be a short battle may take months even years. Similar groups have been known to defeat more powerful forces with even less weaponry like the Chencen War or the 2006 Lebanon war with Israel. Or in Afghanistan where the U.S still hasn't won against the Taliban and other insurgents. 

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    • Also if you think the more 'advanced technology leads to winning a war" this is a common misconception let me explain say you have a convoy of the most state-of-the-art military vehicles with well trained soldiers on board. That's not gonna matter if they are all killed by a secretly detonated roadside IED and the Rebellion will attack the Black Hand with RPG's and stay hidden now not only are the Black Hand Confused and disoriented they loose dozens of military equipment and professionals and what do the rebels loose? Not much maybe some of the rocketers were spotted and killed and a guard tower was destroyed. Rebels have the upper hand in enviroment because I'm certain they will know Medici better then a foreign PMC and that's another thing; Black Hand is a PMC not a professional military force, what does this mean? It means the Black Hand is not a conventional fighting force a mercenary group that aides whatever side pays them. So this would mean the Black Hand will most likely not care for the liberation of Medici because they can always find jobs somewhere else in some other war. My last point is the Black Hand is not to numerous as the Rebels and have less members. 

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    • Actually, as for Vietnam: The us did not lose that war. In fact they were closer to winning. The communists were just clever about it and won their super effective propaganda war, which made the american civilians think that they were losing and that the us government is lying to their people. After all, the war had already lasted for like a decade with no visible end. Massive civilian protests then forced the us government to make peace with the communists. Obviously the communists then only waited like a year until the us military was gone and then easily steamrolled the pitiful south Vietnam.

      A much better example would be the us war of independence, in which George Washington (a former english officer) with the aid of other former officers, trained what was in his own description a very poorly equipped rebel militia, who were always short of all supplies (including food), to win a war against the technologically and numerically superior english army. The english military was at that time even more powerful than NATO is today. That war was the equivalent of like the Taliban completely defeating US-led forces in a relatively short open war.

      Anyway, miracles like that only happen if the weaker side has some new super-weapon, or new tactic. The US won against the english because they used guerrilla war against a military that had only trained for open war and "standard" tactics. Or sometimes when the "stronger" side is just so poorly trained, or corrupt, or on the edge of bankruptcy that the war just pushes them over the edge into some kind of collapse.

      In any case, the Black Hand is surely very well experienced in "unconventional" tactics. The difference that counts is that in Medici, they have to fight in a foreign land where they depend on being supplied over the sea. The rebels have popular support of the people in a nation that produces most of the supplies on the spot.

      There are many examples of local rebels defeating on-paper obviously superior military forces, but those are all local wars where the rebels have popular support of the people.

      The last minor insurgency in Afghanistan will also eventually fade away, because the NATO forces are co-operating with the locals to eliminate any further support of the people for the Taliban. It'll likely take another 10 years, but the vast majority of warfare is over. There are no areas where the Taliban could say they rule anything. Their small remaining forces are all hiding and only occasionally concentrating their forces to storm some local outposts. They nolonger dare to attack NATO units, they only attack the US-backed Afghan government forces to fight for the support of the people and demoralize the us-backed government.

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    • Reactivated 5 days later

      @DontTreadonme76 Let me give you this scenario

      What wins between a gun and a knife? The gun obviously, unless

      1. The gun fails to fire

      2. The user does not know how to operate the gun

      3. The person with the knife moves faster

      Now Vietnam was a bad war because

      1. Yes, the American public was anti-war BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN AT LEAST 10 YEARS

      NO OTHER WAR HAD THE U.S. MILITARY UP UNTIL THAT POINT BEEN IN MORE THAN EIGHT YEARS OF CONFLICT

      2. Yes, the U.S. had helicopters and machine guns and even attack planes, but technology did not win the war

      HOWEVER, in most cases,

      TECHNOLOGY DOES

      3. It's Chechen, not "Chencen"

      4. Afghanistan is still a safe haven for most terrorists because the government is weak

      You know what the problem with the U.S. is as it relates to terrorism? Every war its waged on terrorism on said country has always destabilized

      Iraq
      Afghanistan
      Syria

      See a pattern? They are all heavily infested with terrorists

      And the U.S. IS winning

      It's just some partisan news always focus on the bad

      'advanced technology leads to winning a war" this is a common misconception

      Really? Enlighten me. Please.

      Satellites. Drone bombers. EMPs. Nuclear missiles. These four things alone could wipe clean any country in seconds, even as large as Russia or the U.S. And guess what? They are all technological advances.

      Yes, there is still the traditional "guerrilla warfare" but

      In most cases, its successful

      Against a weak army

      The U.S. military is the largest in the world with

      The largest navy

      The second largest army

      The largest air force

      And not to mention the millions of reserve military personnel


      The Black Hand is a private military corporation / mercenary group

      It always fights for who pays the highest, be it

      Salvador Mendoza or Sebastiano Di Ravello


      End conclusion

      What is your point?

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    • A FANDOM user
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